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Thread: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

   
   
       
  1. #1
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    Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    This can be a big headache. Any ideas on how to overcome this?

    Doctored gold bars


    Dear Bill,

    That was quite the bombshell from Rob Kirby yesterday about the "good delivery" bars filled with tungsten. When I was a bullion dealer, I was always on the lookout for counterfeits and tampered bars. In the last PM bull market, some 100 oz silver bars were drilled and filled with lead. However, this can be easily detected by weighing with a decent scale, as lead has a different density than silver.

    However, the tungsten filled gold bars indicate a very sophisticated fraud. Not only is tungsten cheap, it has the SAME density as gold - 19.3 g/cc. Assuming the ends are sealed smoothly, you can touch and weigh the bars all you want, you can't be sure they are pure gold without cutting into them. Panic is likely to break out among professionals as the news of this fraud spreads. If you can't trust the "good delivery" bars what can you trust? These are supposed to have a guaranteed purity and then never leave the custody of trusted individuals so that investors don't have to assay them. Who knows what will be found as more large investors demand full audits?

    It's amazing how lately so many gold stories back up GATA research. GATA has pointed out repeatedly that swapping, leasing, and paper games were necessary to keep the gold price down as the central banks didn't have the metal they claimed. Here is yet another instance of investors believing they hold X amount of bullion but in reality owning a mere fraction. It's a Ponzi scheme just like the Madoff scandal, and will end just as badly.

    All the best,
    Jennifer Barry
    www.globalassetstrategist.com
    py

  2. #2
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    Dear Mr. Murphy!
    In yesterday's Midas you reported something about "doctored gold bars".

    I posted it on my gold website www.hartgeld.com

    Shortly thereafter I received a message from a well established tungsten dealer in Germany:

    He stated that recently strange enquires for large quantities of pure tungsten came to him from Asia. The people making these enquiries are not known in the industry. He thinks they buy for someone else. Maybe it has something to do with these "doctored gold bars", or not.

    If it is the case, it must be a large scale operation. They seem to look in the whole world for tungsten. Maybe it is to exchange the contents of gold stores (like GLD) and make them "audit proof". It is not easy to find out, if a "gold bar" has a tungsten core or not - except by melting it. Which financial auditor would do it? probably none, because it is too much effort and they believe in the LGD-system.

    Bringing such bars onto the market is another thing, because the buyer might test them. The gold cartel would do this only in the most dire emergency, because it the fraud becomes open, almost nobody would trust the LGD-system anymore. It probably has already happened. If these bars mentioned in Midas show a paper trail back to a cartel bank, bad for this bank. Is their situation already this bad?

    Besides, making tungsten "gold bars" requires a quite sophisticated operation, this metal has a very high melting point, but is the only one with the same density as gold. Also, forging the necessary paper trail is not easy for the common criminal, but easy for a bank.

    Most gold refineries in Europe trust nobody and no gold coming in. They melt, test and re-refine everything. Imagine, a lot of tungsten cores showing up in London Good Delivery bars. Maybe a large number of doctored bars is already out, but nobody has tested them?

    As it looks, the gold cartel is on its last legs.
    Best Regards from Vienna, Austria
    Walter Eichelburg
    py

  3. #3
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    Resistivity test: Yes, that was what I was thinking about last night. Gee, looks like a lot of work for many people.

    Nothing gets by Adrian, or Rob K for that matter…

    Bill,
    As a technical point, for anyone wanting to determine if a bar is genuine without melting it is to measure the resistivity of the bar. Gold is three times more conductive to electricity than tungsten with a resistivity of 22.14 nano-ohm.m versus 52.8 nano-ohm.m for tungsten. So accurate electrical measurements can easily recognize a fake bar with a simple non-destructive test.
    Cheers
    Adrian

    Bill,
    This is interesting

    http://www.roskill.com/report.html?id=82

    QUOTE

    There have been very few new applications for tungsten in recent years and most end use markets are relatively mature. This means that average growth rates tend to be generally in line with cyclical economic activity. However, global demand rose from 45,100tW in 2002 to 60,500tW in 2005, an average of 10%py. Demand for tungsten is forecast to grow by an average 3%py to 2010, when it will reach 68,250t.

    END

    So there were no new uses for tungsten yet there was a sudden spike in demand where the annual growth rate tripled from 2002-2005. I calculate the anomalous extra demand to equal 21,000 t. That is certainly a very provocative number after my recent article!! This is by no means proof of anything but a sudden massive increase in demand for a metal that has no new applications and is in a mature market is difficult to explain away. Perhaps there WAS a new use for tungsten that very few people know about…like making fake LGD gold bars!

    Most LGD bars will be kept in vaults in London and not be re-assayed if they don’t leave the vault. An almost water tight fraud once they are accepted in to the vault that even auditors could not detect. The plot thickens!

    Auditors will need to be armed with equipment to make electrical resistivity tests!
    Cheers
    Adrian

    Bill
    BTW tungsten is about $100 pet mt compared to gold at 32 million

    dollars per mt!
    Cheers
    Adrian
    py

  4. #4
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    Seems that the safest way is to keep them in coin form instead of bars.

  5. #5
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenFinger
    Seems that the safest way is to keep them in coin form instead of bars.

    For small sums of money, maybe. But gold-coated titanum will weigh the same as pure gold and have the same specific gravity. Furthermore, for commercial traders, it has to be of a larger denomination to be practical. This is governed by handling and storage constraints. On the COMEX, one lot size is 400 oz, if I am not mistaken.
    py

  6. #6
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    400 oz +- 30 oz is London Gold Market delivery size. LBMA
    100 oz is the delivery size for COMEX.
    10 oz is the delivery size for Hong KOng Gold Exchange

    Quote Originally Posted by pywong
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenFinger
    Seems that the safest way is to keep them in coin form instead of bars.

    For small sums of money, maybe. But gold-coated titanum will weigh the same as pure gold and have the same specific gravity. Furthermore, for commercial traders, it has to be of a larger denomination to be practical. This is governed by handling and storage constraints. On the COMEX, one lot size is 400 oz, if I am not mistaken.

  7. #7
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldChan
    400 oz +- 30 oz is London Gold Market delivery size. LBMA
    100 oz is the delivery size for COMEX.
    10 oz is the delivery size for Hong KOng Gold Exchange

    I stand corrected. Thanks.

    Hmmm. Hong Kong accepts such small lots.
    py

  8. #8
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    http://www.cgse.com.hk/pages.php?menu_id=17
    but you have to go through some of the CGSE member to purchase the product.
    Not really sure how things work.

    Quote Originally Posted by pywong
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldChan
    400 oz +- 30 oz is London Gold Market delivery size. LBMA
    100 oz is the delivery size for COMEX.
    10 oz is the delivery size for Hong KOng Gold Exchange

    I stand corrected. Thanks.

    Hmmm. Hong Kong accepts such small lots.

  9. #9
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    Well...its a good thing I don't own any bars then, innit? Tungsten or otherwise.

    1040, and I buy some more coins.

    However, if I did own bars, I'd probably do some serious sawing right about now.



  10. #10
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    Re: Doctored gold bars using tungsten

    Quote Originally Posted by pywong
    Gold is three times more conductive to electricity than tungsten with a resistivity of 22.14 nano-ohm.m versus 52.8 nano-ohm.m for tungsten.
    Maybe this can be used to measure resistivity:

    Aluminothermic Welds (Cadweld®) / DRM-10A
    The DRM-10A micro-ohmmeter can be used to measure very low resistances which vary from 0,01µ? to 200?. This is the most accurate on the market in its category.

    The DRM-10A is suitable for both in-plant maintenance and field. Resistance measurements are calculated automatically. This equipment has become the number one choice for industries, products engineers and manufacturers. ndbtech.

    Its sensitivity is 10 nano ohm, which is good enough to test gold at 22.14 nano ohm.

    py

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