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Thread: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

   
   
       
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    13,391

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K
    Personally, I still would disagree with using ratepayers' rolls as the basis for conducting an opinion poll. Its too elitist (esp. the idea of multiple votes for people who hold multiple title deeds!!??) and its not like we do not have access to the last electoral roll used for the General Elections.
    Bob, these are the objections raised by Khalid and Ronnie Liu against local govt elections:
    1. Cost.
    2. Electoral roll is rife with phantoms.
    3. Postal voters
    4. Only the SPR is authorised to conduct elections.

    It's well and good to object on the basis of elitism. Isn't the present system of appointment by the State Govt elitist?

    Do you have a practical proposal to overcome those problems without giving an excuse for the Federal Govt to suspend the State Govt?

    Please make a proposal in plain English. Don't just object only. We expect more from you.
    py

  2. #22

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    I do not have much to add to this discussion except to express my support for local council elections. There will be no perfect system. You can come up with any other system and I am quite sure I can find at least one ground to object to it. Any form of local government selected by ratepayers or residents will be better than the present system in which councillors are appointed by the state government.

    The gist of it before us as voters is this: If local council election has been an election promise by PR, we should consider this as a breach of promise and how much weightage we should put on it when we cast our votes in the next elections.

    I find it laughable that costs, [burden of] administration of the elections, and other reasons should be cited as excuses for not conducting local elections. Did PR not consider these before they make their election promises? Or are they merely making empty promises which they never intend or have hope of fulfilling? I find this very disturbing.

    Ng Chak Ngoon

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    126

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Quote Originally Posted by chakngoon.ng
    Or are they merely making empty promises which they never intend or have hope of fulfilling? I find this very disturbing.

    Ng Chak Ngoon
    FACT: Pakatan never dream of attaining 4 additional States - Selangor, Perak, Penang, Kedah.

    Overall, they has been clumsy in the administration of the 4 New States.
    They are still in searching stage (groping in the dark) instead of alignment stage.
    Not help by the Federal gomen's restriction of funds or rather non-availability.
    Compounded by the mindset of the civil servants and their behavior to 'gomen of the day'

    It is still early days, but I wonder how long must the Rakyat wait for them to cleanse Bolehland?

  4. #24
    rocky Guest

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K

    Whether we like it or not, and with or without elections, we will still have politicians taking up these positions. Anybody who opts to participate in this process is already a politician by definition and practice. Politics is not necessarily a four letter word.
    Bob thanks for stating the obvious...duh. There is one major difference in what you stated thou.One is voted in thus some what accountable to the voters, the other is appointed. Yeah they are all politician, but I'd prefer the one that is voted in.

    pywong - agree with you that time is running out. But some in PR seem to think by blaming the federal gomen, they can get away with it.Use electoral role or electricity bill or whatever that makes sense. There is no perfect method but electoral role is good start.phantom vote etc is just a freaking excuse.hell they PR formed the gomen based on this same bloody electoral rolls, not toilet roll. :P Doing nothing will screw PR next GE.

  5. #25

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Empty promises is the halmark of ALL politicians.The better one is at it,the better a politicians one become.If we badly want the one truth that can free us,turn to religions enmasse.

  6. #26

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Quote Originally Posted by pywong
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K
    Personally, I still would disagree with using ratepayers' rolls as the basis for conducting an opinion poll. Its too elitist (esp. the idea of multiple votes for people who hold multiple title deeds!!??) and its not like we do not have access to the last electoral roll used for the General Elections.
    Bob, these are the objections raised by Khalid and Ronnie Liu against local govt elections:
    1. Cost.
    2. Electoral roll is rife with phantoms.
    3. Postal voters
    4. Only the SPR is authorised to conduct elections.

    It's well and good to object on the basis of elitism. Isn't the present system of appointment by the State Govt elitist?

    Do you have a practical proposal to overcome those problems without giving an excuse for the Federal Govt to suspend the State Govt?

    Please make a proposal in plain English. Don't just object only. We expect more from you.
    Sigh .. this whole "write in plain English" polemic is getting a bit too patronising.

    If you'd notice, I have given qualified support for the opinion poll proposal. My only objection to it was the use of ratepayer's rolls as the basis to decided who is qualified to participate.

    The current system of indirect elections of local councillor (aka appointments) is still IMHO the lesser of two evils in comparison to a poll tax. I'll be damned before I support a proposal that would see one individual more of a say compared to another by virtue of nett worth and property ownership.

  7. #27

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    It seems to me that both PY and Bob agree on the need for local council elections. What they dispute over is who should vote in the interim period when election commission is not conducting the elections. While PY proposes that ratepayers shall vote, Bob is in favour of using the last electoral roll used for the General Elections.

    If I have to choose between these two proposals, I would prefer Bob's proposal but I would not object if PY's were to be used instead. To me this should not be a point of dispute. I could come up with a third alternative and argue in its favour but that would only add to the confusion. The important point here is how we can get PR to honour its election promise. Alternatively, what can we do about it if it does not?

    Ng Chak Ngoon




  8. #28
    Join Date
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    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Chak Ngoon, I am afraid my difference with Bob is a little more fundamental than that.

    My understanding of Bob's position is, since he doesn't get to vote as he is not a rate-payer in MPSJ, nobody else votes.

    My position is:
    1. The easiest way to move forward is to use the Rate payers roll with MPSJ. BTW, I am a rate-payer but it is not terribly important to me whether I get to vote or not. The basic thing is that this Roll is available and does not have much problem with regards to phantoms.
    2. It costs very little to post opinion ballots to the rate payers as MPSJ does it twice a year. If fact, if a decision is made fast, the ballot paper could even be posted along with the next notice of assessment in Feb 09. (Ok, just wishful thinking).
    3. The timing is just right to replace the current batch of councillors whose term expire in June 09.
    4. This is a very simple test of PR's credibility. If they cannot fulfill such a simple promise, then we should be very wary of their bigger promises.
    py

  9. #29

    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Incidentally, I am a ratepayer in MPSJ as well as MBPJ. That's besides the point. The issue is the principle of suffrage. The current system, while not allowing for the direct election of councillors, is a form of indirect election, similar to the election of our Senate/Dewan Negara. Ultimately, I can still get my ADUN to be accountable for the action/inaction of the State's appointed Councillors.

    If a Councillor's position is by virtue of the voting pleasure of a privileged few, the potential for corruption is exacerbated and there will definitely be an imbalance in representation, not much different from the current practice except that this time it has the additional legitimacy of being an "elected" office. Try dismantling that once it has been established as the de-facto practice.

    If I were to only have the two options as laid out above, I'd choose the former as the lesser of two evils. Fortunately, it is not an impasse. There are alternative methods apart from these two options. I fail to see why one would adamantly insist on the practice of "voting by privilege" rather than "by right" when other options remain viable.

    It would be accurate to surmise that the fundamental difference in opinion between PY and me would be ideological.

    Utilitarianism, while appealing as a means of solving an immediate problem, can lead to unexpected consequences. Mahathir's reforms in his 21 years of power remains one of the better examples of the problems of utilitarianism.

  10. #30
    Join Date
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    Re: Proposal for "Elected" Local Government

    Bob, I am not sure you understand my point:

    My proposal is an interim measure until we can change the Federal Laws to allow proper local govt elections. What is so dangerous about that? What is so elitist about that? Elitism is when we have 2000 UMNO delegates select the Prime Minister without reference to the people or even the ordinary members of UMNO.

    Implementing now is a demonstration of good faith on the part of PR. Not implementing in for whatever reasons shows bad faith. When PR leaders campaigned on a platform for the third vote and now tries to weasel out of their promise on elected local govt, that is bad faith.
    py

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