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Thread: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

   
   
       
  1. #21
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    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    In trying to understand the historical development in the Middle East, it seems that this piece of land that happens to be the corridor between the East and the West, and between the North and the South, is indeed very volatile even in ancient times, where there were many powers that had controlled these areas at different times.

    And the account given by Isa Rahim seems to be quite reasonable except I am unable to verify the details as yet. I hope to be able to find more material to confirm these information posted here and hopefully piece up some of these information together. But as of now, I just want to understand how the present past came to be what it is today.

    Thank you Isa Rahim for the posting, it is very informative for a start and warrants some research to get to the true picture as to why Israel is what it is today, and what the land of the Philistines is what it is today.

    So, if this is a more accurate account of the history of the Middle East, then I hope ppl will be able to understand the events that develope during this modern times.

    What I don't understand is, "Why the moslem world never seem to condem the rocket attacks from the Palestinians in Gaza and the Hesbollahs in Southern Lebanon into Israel?" And when Israel responds with deadly proportions, the moslems protest in streets all over the world, which then lead to condemnation of Israel when Israel was just trying to defend itself. This, I think is perhaps some kind of conspiracy theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Isa Rahim
    This is precisely why there was never any suggestion of a Palestinian state; not under the Romans, not under the Crusaders, not under the Turks, not under the English, and not under the Arab Kingdom of Jordan, not until after Israel was again established in its homeland.

    Whatever you believe, don't you think these facts deserve to be raised when discussing Middle East policies?
    Perhaps it is also just a conspiracy... to further convolute these cold facts because so few ppl really knew and understood the real history behind the Middle East.

    I do not condone killing of innocent ppl both in Israel and in the Gaza Strip. But, whoever it is after being provoked, will have to face the consequences. This is something we are all aware, if we hit someone's nose intentionally and unprovoked, we may end up with two black eyes, or worse still - a broken leg...

    Don't we think that the moslem world should blame the Hamas leaders (for the calamity that ensued) who condone the rocket attacks instead of Israel (for answering to the rocket attacks)?



  2. #22
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    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by usjT
    What I don't understand is, "Why the moslem world never seem to condem the rocket attacks from the Palestinians in Gaza and the Hesbollahs in Southern Lebanon into Israel?" And when Israel responds with deadly proportions, the moslems protest in streets all over the world, which then lead to condemnation of Israel when Israel was just trying to defend itself. This, I think is perhaps some kind of conspiracy theory...
    usjT, I wouldn't flog this "Moslem" angle if I were you. Some things are best left alone in Malaysia. I know it goes against the concept of free speech, blah, blah, blah. Religion will just stir up emotions and prevent people from seeing the real issues - it is just part of the Global Rat Race!

    I think you have got the Conspiracy Theory upside down. The Conspiracy Theory says that the Western bankers are trying to control the world by buying up the politicians, the news media, big oil, etc. War is just a tool for them to extend their control. Israel is merely the Rottweiler in the Middle-East to serve their purpose. But this Rottweiler has a mind of its own. So sometimes, they decide to do their own thing. Of course, among the bankers, there are quite a number of Jews. That is merely a coincidence.

    The issue is not about race. It's about business, money and greed. And religion is thrown into the mix to confuse the Rats. So please don't try to confuse ourselves by pursuing this "Moslem" line of reasoning. That is not to say there are no Muslims who are upset about the Isreali invasion. We need to bear in mind the so-called leaders are exploiting the issue for their own ends, which is to shore up political support.

    BTW, my sympathies lies with the Palestinians. Not to say that they are right to shoot off rockets at their neighbours. From their point of view, they may be so desperate that it is justified. We don't really know until we live among them and suffer with them. Having said that, it is not a very bright thing to fire rockets at such a powerful neighbour. They are sure to get whacked good and proper. So, I think they must have other objectives in mind. Let's hold back and observe.
    py

  3. #23
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    There is no angel or demon

    There is no angel or demon

    JAN 6 — The relationship between Israel and Palestine has to be one of the most enduring conflicts of our time. Not one year has passed since I first learned of the conflict without the announcement of a death linked to it.

    The countless deaths and the dead end of this vicious cycle of hostility repeats itself over and over again, and I am numb. As I read of others taking sides in the conflict, I can only sigh and question, “Where is the wisdom in all of this?”

    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...angel-or-demon
    py

  4. #24
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    Ruthlessness of the Israeli war-machine

    Observe the role played by the news media in demonising the victims. This is all part of the programme of the Global Ruling Class.

    http://anilnetto.com/israel-and-pale...ver-40-killed/

    Massacre! Israeli forces shell UN school in refugee camp

    .....

    Funeral tents attacked; emergency calls refused in Gaza


    Funeral tents have been attacked in Gaza, hospital premises shelled, a high-rise building housing international media fired at by an Apache helicopter, medical teams prevented from responding to 80 per cent of emergency calls… and of course, the rising death toll of civilians, including women and children.

    And all the while, the Palestinians are being steadily dispossessed from their rapidly shrinking homeland.

    http://anilnetto.com/health-care/fun...fused-in-gaza/

    Gaza: The BBC and subtext propaganda
    Tuesday, 06 January 2009 19:30

    Think about this for a moment. Israel is called Israel in BBC reports. But Palestine is rarely called Palestine. Israel fights Hamas. Israel has a name, the name of a place, a country. Palestine has none. Instead, Hamas – or, the more usual, Hamas militants – are fighting Israel. Never do we hear of the Palestinians or the Palestinian people, observes John Hilley.
    http://www.aliran.com/index.php?opti...iary&Itemid=22

    Gaza: Terrorising the victims through the ‘War on Terror’

    Tuesday, 06 January 2009 18:56

    Today we are witnessing an aggressive onslaught on the Palestinians that is being justified and rationalised on the basis of a war on terror and terrorists, observes Farish A Noor. The Palestinian people – who have been robbed of their land, rights and self-respect – are being portrayed as irrational, fanatical terrorists instead.

    http://www.aliran.com/index.php?opti...2008&Itemid=40
    py

  5. #25
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    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    In putting up an analyis, it has to be objective and not biased on feelings or fear.
    Quote Originally Posted by pywong
    usjT, I wouldn't flog this "Moslem" angle if I were you. Some things are best left alone in Malaysia. I know it goes against the concept of free speech, blah, blah, blah. Religion will just stir up emotions and prevent people from seeing the real issues - it is just part of the Global Rat Race!
    Well it seems to be that way. It's not about religion here, it's about the basic action-and-reaction, and human instinct - survival instinct and nothing more. Religion was being hijacked here by certain interested parties to further their cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by pywong
    I think you have got the Conspiracy Theory upside down. The Conspiracy Theory says that the Western bankers are trying to control the world by buying up the politicians, the news media, big oil, etc. War is just a tool for them to extend their control. Israel is merely the Rottweiler in the Middle-East to serve their purpose. But this Rottweiler has a mind of its own. So sometimes, they decide to do their own thing. Of course, among the bankers, there are quite a number of Jews. That is merely a coincidence.
    If this is the conspiracy theory, then it is really sad to be taken in by such a theory. I don't buy this theory. It just fall flat with the domino effect that had taken place in recent months that plunged the US and (almost) the whole world into recession.

  6. #26
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    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by usjT
    If this is the conspiracy theory, then it is really sad to be taken in by such a theory. I don't buy this theory. It just fall flat with the domino effect that had taken place in recent months that plunged the US and (almost) the whole world into recession.

    The Conspiracy Theory is just a mental model. Use it if it suits you and the facts fit. Otherwise, ignore it.
    py

  7. #27

    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    Malaysian Reactions To The Israel-Palestine Conflict
    originally posted at http://www.bobjots.org/2009/01/malay...tine-conflict/

    I attended a meeting a few days ago hosted by the Muslim Professionals Forum that sought to organise a response to the current Israeli attacks in Gaza. Despite having promised to a few friends that I would hold my tongue, it got to a point where I was just getting extremely irritated and frustrated.

    First of all .. the rhetoric that was used. For example, while I agree that the exclusive use of “anti-semitism” misses the point that Palestinean Arabs are themselves of Semitic stock, to argue on that as an end-all without engaging on the point raised that there is an excessive amount of anti-Jewish (not just anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist) sentiment present in the Malaysian media in how the conflict has been portrayed seems to much like a stonewalling cop-out.

    What also frustrated me was the whole emphasis on seeking a reaction. There IS a humanitarian tragedy that’s occuring in the Gaza right now. I doubt you’d find anyone who’d disagree with that. Of course, to take the number of casualties on the Palestinean side and adding the surreptious suffix of “children” to the sentence makes it an exercise of deliberate misinformation.

    What I did not hear was what we can do to encourage a solution to the crisis. While there is definitely a need to immediately respond to the humanitarian crisis, to react on the basis of wanting to create “sympathy” to the Palestinean cause (which does already exist as far as the official rhetoric of the state and the media is concerned), as well as encouraging “non-Muslims” to join in solidarity (now that’s new .. but then how did this issue evolve into something that requires special effort to attract the support of adherents of faiths other than Islam is perhaps something worth asking too), just doesn’t do anything.

    Rest assured, the same discussions and reactions will be discussed the next time another crisis occurs just as it has always been since the First Intifadah (at least, that’s the extent of my own participation). Yep .. I guess that was what really irked me. The whole discussion was sounding like a broken record .. albeit coming from a different set of people and I could foresee another similar discussion and round of chest beating occurring in the next cycle of violence that will inevitably happen between the Israeli government and the various representatives of the Palestinean people.

    Inevitable? Yes! Because for all our blustering and bleeding heart sympathy, it is a fact that, at least in Malaysia, none of us have developed the necessary moral courage to confront ourselves and ask ourselves the really hard questions vis a vis the Israeli-Palestinean conflict.

    Eboo Patel brings up some pertinent thoughts about the contrast between the “Status Quo” and the “Solution”. He posits that the rules of the Status Quo had been set long ago and that both sides are equally guilty of it :

    Rule #1
    Use the current crisis to advance your narrative
    If you’re Muslim, it includes terms like, “humanitarian crisis”, “occupation” and “disproportionate violence”. If you’re Jewish, that story involves words like “security”, “terrorism”, and “right to exist”.


    Rule #2
    Talk about how bad it is where your people live
    If you’re Muslim, it involves talking about the prison that is Gaza and the disaster that is the West Bank. If you’re Jewish, that means highlighting the number of Hamas rockets fired into Israel and the number of lives lost and disrupted in cities like Sderot.


    Rule #3
    Blame it on the other side
    If you’re Muslim, it means talking about the suffocation of the blockade in Gaza and the occupation in the West Bank. If you’re Jewish, that means pointing at the violent and belligerent defiance of Hamas.
    It’s pretty obvious that if the “Status Quo” remains that underlying ethos, there’s no conceivable reason to want to find another way of engaging this issue. It doesn’t help that every one of the rules above are true for both sides. As Eboo Patel puts it:

    Following these rules makes perfect sense for the parties involved because just about every one of their talking points is true. Hamas is violent and belligerent. The blockade and occupation is suffocating. Life in Sderot is rife with fear. Life in Gaza does feel like a prison.
    I like the alternative rules that he suggests and believe that if we Malaysians who are concerned about what’s happening over there start to adopt some of these rules, we might actually play a more significant role in helping end this whole mess :

    Rule #1
    Make your first phone calls to the people who disagree with you on the current situation, but who agree with you on the basic outlines of a long-term solution - two states, with security and dignity for all
    That’s a Coalition for a Solution, creative and courageous enough to get people’s attention. This means, difficult as it might be, resist the instinct to use the current crisis to find more people who will wave signs for your side, show up at your rallies or sign on to your petitions. That logic serves mostly to further prolong the conflict. Instead, use the spotlight on the Middle East to reach out to those on the other side who have the courage to play for a long-term solution and say, “Look, the status quo is untenable for everybody. It’s time for a different set of rules.”


    Rule #2
    Acknowledge the real issues on the other side
    Minnesota U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison, the first Muslim in Congress, models this in his recent press release when he says that he has been in Sderot and has “seen firsthand both the physical and emotional destruction caused by the rocket attacks”. That acknowledgment doesn’t take away from something else that Ellison says - which is that conditions in Gaza are “unliveable”. It merely means that Ellison has the eyes and the heart to imagine life on both sides of the fence.


    In Status Quo Rules, recognizing the challenge on the other side makes you a traitor. In the Solution Rulebook, it makes you a true patriot, because it’s the fastest way to build trust with the people you have to build peace with.

    Rule #3
    Recognize that certain players who claim to be on “your side” are part of the problem
    The truth is, you don’t want them on your side anyway. They are dangerous and destabilizing to your community. When peace is finally made with the other side, your first battle is going to be against them. Hamas is a destructive force to Israelis, and a destructive force to Palestinians. Muslims should feel no obligation to defend them. The militant settlers are murder to Palestinians, and also murder to Israel. No Jews should feel like they have to defend them either.


    Rule #4
    The politics of the Middle East is about where your family is
    If your family is in Sderot, it is unbearable. If your family is in Gaza, it is also unbearable. Talking about whether scattered Hamas rockets are the equivalent of precision Israeli air raids, or whether Islamist rhetoric is as bad as Israeli occupation is logical but irrelevant. Logical because you can write press releases for your side using such talking points, irrelevant because it doesn’t build a bridge to the other side, which is the only way to a solution.
    I have, of course, met people here who aren’t interested in a solution per se. They either want to see the destruction of Israel or the subjugation of the Palestinean Arabs. Some are a wee bit more “sophisticated” and develop some complex conspiracy theory involving either the world superpowers using Israel as a their “rottweiler” or on the flip side, a master Islamic strategy to rid the world of “infidels”, starting with the Jews.

    Perhaps its time we consign these folks to the minority fringe that they ought to be at instead of allowing them to dominate the discourse as they currently are. Then, perhaps then, we might be able to see a way out of this 60 year old impasse.

  8. #28
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    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K
    I have, of course, met people here who aren’t interested in a solution per se. They either want to see the destruction of Israel or the subjugation of the Palestinean Arabs. Some are a wee bit more “sophisticated” and develop some complex conspiracy theory involving either the world superpowers using Israel as a their “rottweiler” or on the flip side, a master Islamic strategy to rid the world of “infidels”, starting with the Jews.
    Bob, hehehe. You couldn't resist that, could you? The Middle-east is a subset of a bigger game. Having said that, Eboo Patel's approach makes sense. If that will bring peace to the Middle-east, why not?

    BTW, how did you embed the link in "Eboo Patel brings up "
    py

  9. #29

    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    I actually heard that in the meeting except that the term "bulldog" was used. I preferred rottweiler

    To embed a link, use the following short code:

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  10. #30
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    Re: Latest incursion by Israel into Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K
    I actually heard that in the meeting except that the term "bulldog" was used. I preferred rottweiler

    To embed a link, use the following short code:

    Code:
    Link Name

    Link name: tx.

    Don't discount the Conspiracy theory out of hand. BE AWARE!
    py

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